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RE: BT TV Internet Mode - CCFG - 06-06-2023

(05-06-2023, 10:07 PM)interestednovice Wrote:  Channel List Management (HD and SD swapping).

Channel List Management (CLM) would actually be quite beneficial for a Freeview-IPTV platform as it actually supports non-red button IP channels, and also an IP fallback, mostly there for viewers without an aerial, or who are served by a relay transmitter and are missing the likes of Dave, Sky Arts and Drama. This also might be crucial if or when DTT loses its frequencies.

Alas, this only works with Freeview Play televisions and set-top-boxes made from 2020 onwards. (In fact last I checked the IP/IP fallback idea was included in the CLM spec, but hadn't been utilised yet) Isn't Freeview Play practically the same as YouView? Standard DTT but also integrates with internet/VOD services?

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 06-06-2023

Youview had the strange (to broadcasters) that a proprietary IP interface was needed
In part because some people wanted a walled garden ….
In other because broadcasting was dead and only new media types knew the future !

The broadcasters want/need an open international standard which is what hbbtv is
As is used in Freeview play and whose specification was latterly driven by the uk
https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/102700_102799/102796/01.06.01_60/ts_102796v010601p.pdf  So a very different beast !!

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - interestednovice - 07-06-2023

The problem for Freeview right now, as I see it, is that IP-Fallback and CLM should have been in the spec 5 to 10 years ago if you wanted to adopt them tomorrow.

Unfortunately, they weren’t so most devices currently in use cannot implement a channel swap (unless the EPG for everyone swaps which, with SD on the way out, ought to happen now in my opinion).

IP Fallback will be crucial if/when we move to a future with no OTA broadcast, although even then technologies such as 5G broadcast could be used so transmission may not entirely rely on a conventional internet connection as you might imagine. I really think that the missed opportunities to drive a “T2 switchover” including more HD channels also actually, practically-speaking, will hasten the adoption of IP Fallback as it will be an excellent method of providing a much greater number of HD channels.

Freeview’s poor showing of only the main 5 PSB channels plus a few extra BBC ones in HD is really going to stick out like a sore thumb when every other platform is quickly going HD-only. Consumers will be keen to upgrade to HD and 4K capable internet TV, if it becomes available under the Freeview banner.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 07-06-2023

The promotion and operation of the UK DTT platform is a glorious British mish-mash
which works remarkably well after a very uncertain start and 2002 relaunch.

Freeview was set up as  pure marketing operation and ensured that peoples receivers would work by enforcing licensing of the Freeview <X> logo
to those equipment that complied (and were tested)  to the D book (which also constrains what is transmitted to ensure interoperability )
and now plus Freeview Play.
It has rolled in what what DMOL which provided Platform management -
survived one of the largest Mux operators pulling out of the company
and now has taken over the operation and thus with a wider stake holder base Freesat
(which lincenses STB not their performance set by an external body) 

On the HD front is annoyed DTI /BEIS etc by unilaterally changing the rules and enforcing Freeview HD 
And dropping Freeview and Freeview plus.....
On the Other Hand the government/ OFCOM pushed though PSB3 to be HD at DSO
But the lack of the Vaizey plan at 700 MHz clearance or something like it was a mistake ....
But the implications of more or less loosing a PSB mux
And /or forcing the Non PSB channels of the PSBs to tend to lie on PSB coverage mux.
and the efficiencies of having the existing PSB mux refarmed as a Regional (3) a National (1) and a UK wide (not really PSB) mux (2)  had many Commercial Regulatory and Competition issues.

Picture quality has not  had much effect on UK viewer who seem to want More ....
(unless of course they pay Sky for the HD quality!!!)
and no one has lobbied DTG to make the D book say that any SD AVC should be 720*576.

On the IP front Freeview play STB/TV  has been about for over 5 year now
and with technologically advanced features like HDR  and UHD incorporated.
On CLM - I have to observe that no one really understands EPGs !!!
And on fall back - if the itv had not funded the new PSB3 Code and mux  then the BBC would have followed PAra 33 of their Distribution strategy and not emitted BBC one Regions HD...
that would concentrate a number of minds!!! 
But the BBC like all broadcaster have issues about data collection  but have not as yet set up an intentional (or even UK ) standard for doing so!  hence the Broadcasters Apps.

But going HD is NOT a for Freeview action at all
- it is up to the Mux operators to provide the technical means of doing so
and they will not do this until the broadcasters want to emit HD on DTT
.. and pay for it!!........................ with no more Income!!!!!






.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - London Lite - 07-06-2023

Consumers are happy to pay for large screen televisions and then watch sub-par 544x576 low bitrate channels on them.

Personally I rarely watch Freeview these days, except for occasionally the main PSBs between 101-105 in HD.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - interestednovice - 07-06-2023

It does all come back to the viewer, yes, but eventually the Freeview platform will be replaced with a new “FreeIP” platform if it does not keep up with evolving consumer expectations - which will be HD (at least), 4K and internet delivery. The Freeview marketing organisation should be looking at this now, because of the time it takes to get things to market.

Even though people may be happy with Freeview now, they quickly won’t be once they notice how every other platform has, comparatively, advanced. Not to mention that I’m sure a rival joint marketing group will launch a “FreeIP” platform of sorts if Freeview doesn’t do it. So they really cannot rest on their laurels at this time.

Technologist has many good insights, as ever, which I generally defer to. However, I have to think that a single regional T2 mux could house all regional and single-nation only channels (such as S4C, BBC Scotland, etc) leaving every other mux as UK-wide - with the sole exceptions of the NI mini-mux and the local TV mux. Why the need for 1 regional mux, 1 national and the rest U.K. wide?

As for what the incentive to broadcasters would be: I think that’s actually fairly obvious. The ultimatum they are facing is to keep viewers happy, to attract high enough viewing figures to sustain their services, or cede viewers to streaming services instead.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 07-06-2023

Quick answer
And a bit approximate
Regional mux
PSB 3 plus bbc local radio less BBC 2
National mux
BBC 2 , news & parliament
And s4c / BBC scot etc
Plus BBC national/uk,radio
UK wide mux not PSB
itv ch 4 ch 5 daughter channels and May be some UKTV

How many linear channels will there be on IP?
The answer is between one and two dozen ….

And that may be the number of channels on DTT when it turns off/looses spectrum.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - CCFG - 07-06-2023

Another big thing that comes to mind with Freeview is how compressed it all is. I only found a handful of channels over a 2.0mb/s bit rate. (in fact most of these were on PSB1/BBC-A) In fact there are a couple channels on SDN running under 1.0mb/s! This obviously makes it look horrible, but especially with the bit-hungry MPEG-2.

SD is probably not the thing we have to ditch immediately, in my opinion, MPEG-2 needs to be ditched ASAP, especially for a platform that's more about quanity over quality.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Neil Jones - 07-06-2023

(07-06-2023, 08:14 PM)CCFG Wrote:  SD is probably not the thing we have to ditch immediately, in my opinion, MPEG-2 needs to be ditched ASAP, especially for a platform that's more about quanity over quality.

Question: Would the existing Freeview hardware (boxes, TVs, etc) be able to cope with whatever the next option after MPEG2 (MPEG4?) is without a need to replace the whole lot?

We saw with the ITV Digital boxes for example that while they continued to work after ITV DIgital collapsed, at some point down the line the technology changed and those boxes are good now only for door stops.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - WillPS - 07-06-2023

(07-06-2023, 10:56 PM)Neil Jones Wrote:  Question:  Would the existing Freeview hardware (boxes, TVs, etc) be able to cope with whatever the next option after MPEG2 (MPEG4?) is without a need to replace the whole lot?

We saw with the ITV Digital boxes for example that while they continued to work after ITV DIgital collapsed, at some point down the line the technology changed and those boxes are good now only for door stops.

The technology was old even in late 2002 when Freeview launched. I think there had been test transmissions from Crystal Palace over that summer where 8k/Mode 3 was proven (or was that just 64QAM? so long ago now)...

The reality was that ITV Digital boxes (and IDTVs sharing the same hardware) represented the majority of the potential viewership, and remained so for a good few years until STBs came down to <£50 and new tellys had it built in. Not sure how many would still have been using them at DSO (which was when Mode 1 and 2 were finally resigned to history).

All Freeview HD certified equipment supports MPEG4. If you meant whatever is after that then the answer to your question is "it depends but probably yes"; if for no other reason than TV manufacturers are very much in to built in obsolescence and desire to patch firmware on equipment sold years ago is nil.