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BT TV Internet Mode - Printable Version

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RE: BT TV Internet Mode - CCFG - 08-06-2023

(07-06-2023, 10:56 PM)Neil Jones Wrote:  Question:  Would the existing Freeview hardware (boxes, TVs, etc) be able to cope with whatever the next option after MPEG2 (MPEG4?) is without a need to replace the whole lot?

Well, no, but we could have something like a DSO2. We could give out some of the cheap as chips Manhattan Freeview HD STBs for free to the people who still only have MPEG-2 DVB-T1 TVs/STBs.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 08-06-2023

…… and of course £400 million was underspent on the Digital Help,scheme
Which the government just swept into the consolidated fund without a by your leave ….
And despite the move into the mobile bands there may be some if the £250 million
From band clearance pump priming…..
That buys a lot of boxes …. And pays for the distribution. ..
And given why the DHS was underspent … it may not all be needed
As the public would go out and buy new TVs

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - WillPS - 09-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 11:49 PM)Technologist Wrote:  …… and of course £400 million was underspent on the Digital Help,scheme
Which the government just swept into the consolidated  fund  without a by your leave ….
And despite the move into the mobile bands there may be some if the £250 million
From band clearance pump priming…..
That buys a lot of boxes …. And pays for the distribution. ..
And given why the DHS was underspent … it may not all be needed
As the public would go out and buy new TVs

I remember reading something similar about the 425/VHF service closure. The IBA had provided a helpline which had so few calls they managed to help the one/few remaining customers just buy a new 625 set.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - i.h - 09-06-2023

Is there any data on who actually has DVB-T only equipment these days. I suppose it's harder to measure than DSO1 since back then you could ask if they had a flatscreen or not, since most (but not all) had digital tuners while it was the opposite for CRT.

I've still got an supermarket special from the early 2010s that is not DVB-T2 capable, though when it was used it was connected to Freesat and Freeview HD boxes anyway

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - WillPS - 09-06-2023

(09-06-2023, 10:37 AM)i.h Wrote:  Is there any data on who actually has DVB-T only equipment these days. I suppose it's harder to measure than DSO1 since back then you could ask if they had a flatscreen or not, since most (but not all) had digital tuners while it was the opposite for CRT.

I've still got an supermarket special from the early 2010s that is not DVB-T2 capable, though when it was used it was connected to Freesat and Freeview HD boxes anyway

Bedroom telly is HD but not DVB-T2 still. It also doesn't even have an aerial attached to it so not much of a problem for us; I imagine it is mostly going to be mainly smaller/secondary tellies at this point. That said charity shops always seem to be stocked with TVs from the pre-Freeview HD era, and they don't hang around long.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 09-06-2023

Amount of "T" only kit is very complex - as well as the "T HD" - which are perfectly good (still) as half the Main Tvs in the UK ( Because they are on Sky/virgin) and then tracking the wave of interest in new TV
- with things like DSO and the 2012 Olympics and then the fashion for having "4k" Tvs
because the CE marketeers had discovered that there are more Pixels per line than lines per frame!

And that there are over 3 Tvs per household as they migrated to the (children) bedrooms
and then that slowing as viewing on Tablets rose ..... and thus VOD
And OFCOM not doing as much data gathering as they used to!
so i had to use Enders and BARB for filling in some gaps - but trend analysis was difficult

But it was a fairly educated Damp finger the the Air
and the calculation was on a factory Price of £15 a box (and say £10 to deliver it)
there would be enough money in the £400M
to pay for a box to be available more or less on demand with NO means test (unlike the DHS)
- at one level its obvious - there are roughly 25M TV licenses - so given £400M then that's £16/ license!
which is at least say about half a set to box delivered per household.
.... and if TV Licensing paid even shop Price for a STB for each of the B&W license holders (about 4200),
that pays back in about 7 months!
...extending that idea - If you put the TV LF up by £10 to 15 a year and give free STB with each license
(and then keep the price at say £175/year ......) the factory cost of 25M STB would be less than £5 each into the uK...
And the BBC would be better (not well) funded.
but then can "the (Chinese) industry" make 25M in one year and then not much for the UK market for the next 3 years!
- in a post covid world with Semiconductor shortages and move away from China!...
and the what is done with the TV LF?????

Let alone how long can the COBA channel keep going on Linear TV let alone Freeview???
and the commercials of having more Mux bit rate than channels to afford to buy it!
I think too much of a fantasy!!!!

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Keith - 09-06-2023

(07-06-2023, 10:36 AM)Technologist Wrote:  But going HD is NOT a for Freeview action at all
- it is up to the Mux operators to provide the technical means of doing so
and they will not do this until the broadcasters want to emit HD on DTT
.. and pay for it!!........................ with no more Income!!!!!
With Digital 3&4 / PSB2 moving to the cloud does that in theory make it easier and/or cheaper for them to convert to DVB-T2 and emit in HD if they the wanted to?

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 09-06-2023

Yes …. It’s the ATEME same software coders that BBC FTA use for PSB3 …
But as its non PSB channels are uk wide, and the PSB are in PSB 3
Does it need to be regional ? If not there are about 160 instances not required
And there are regulatory issues as well ….
It may be that the coders are being fed HD at the moment
And any changes in telco bit rates are only a click away in Vena.
(As may be changing coding)

And if course Arqiva have about 100 sites to fit with new modulators

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - cable - 10-06-2023

Will there be much point moving to DVB-T2 if the licences do expire in 2034? That's only 10 years from next year. Commercially, does not make much sense. If terrestrial was to end then, would make sense migrating people to IP/Satellite with funding diverted to support such activities.

Having internet delivered HD through devices that support CLM would be an alternative to emitted HD. It would be a good reason to upgrade to Freeview Play equipment too. Getting people on to Freeview play with Internet delivered channels would mean it wont be so jarring then when it comes to DTT SwitchOff as people would get used to internet delivered channels, the more seamless - the better.

RE: BT TV Internet Mode - Technologist - 10-06-2023

Satellite is likely to die before Freeview is turned off or at least around the sane time.
So the solution is IP ….

But how much linear tv will there be ??

The likely answer is likely to be more than one but less than two dozen.
As most viewing will be on demand ….
This will be what ever PSB channels exist (does the uk need 4uk wide psbs?)
The say about half a dozen COBA channels from the BBC itv Ch4 ch 5 Discovery and Sky
Which act a barker channels for the VOD services ,,,,

If you are delivering by IP there is so much more data that the broadcaster can get
(And needs …..) as there is the return channel and a near unique identifier for the viewing device….. so there needs to be a means if getting this back to the broadcaster…
At the moment this is done by the broadcasters (VOD) app…..
So this seems a good way of doing it …. So as now a platform front end EPG calls up an App and a channel a bit like the mux/uhf frequency and channel SID we do at present on emitted services..
the intermediate technology can be a CDN for fixed/fibre …noting the the BBC has BiDi
And that Sky is the second largest UK domestic ISP.
For IP on the move or for fixed wireless by the end of thus decade 5G media broadcast will be available and thus who is wanting the stream should be able to signal and feed back at least basic data to the broadcaster via the mobile comony….. but it would be nice if there was only one of these at each site …from a spectrum usage point uf view.
That is a technical commercial issue at the Moment….

But the stream may not from the VOD broadcasters app
….. and how many wireless STB will there be?
..just add a hdmi connection to your 5G tablet or phone,
…… and does the same apply for wired STB ?

So there is no broadcast specific hardware in the home ……
Thus no place for Freeview/Sat play.
So,a Freeview or someone’s EPG App reference the broadcasters app.

Politically for some reason DTT has been given much emphasis ….
But now it is on under half the first TVs ….
And declining as the number of second third etc tv
(which are overwhelmingly DTT)
declines as VOD viewing on tablet Is growing….

Some similar arguments apply to the audio only / radio services

Thus to answer the question..is it worth taking Freeview T2?

The answer may be one uk wide mux as this is fairly cheap to do
Say 20 coder instances and 100/200 modulators at the transmitters
Or a single modulation at the coder and apply that to a transmitter .
So if you drop the PSB requirement to emit SD
and a bit of juggling of radio service …..
and some broadcaster COBA services going HD …
You can end up with a PSB mux (3 )
and a uk wide COBA T2 mux with fewer than existing channels ….. some in HD others not…
And close PSB 1 …..

But who pays for say 15 years of Arqiva contracted to broadcast a mux that does not exist
Of renegotiate the recent contract with BT M&B …. To about 10% of what it is …
And get government agreement to this ! …
And get the COBA broadcasters affected by this to pay more

That’s why the Vaizey plan was so good…
Government mandated changes with a good 15+ years life to it.
And a step reducing of the PSB emission costs .

That would have worked …. But if things are done it needs ti be soon!
And it probably is worth doing something with Hbbtv
to make Freeview/play have more life For the next 10+years …

But how many PSB and COBA both PSB owned and others over the next ten years
is far from certain ….. so does Freeview become more or less it was at launch ..
PSB plus QVC ?

It’s not simple or that certain.
And certainly not the thing I was planning in 2008 to move to more T2 AVC AAC in the future,
After all IPlayer was under a year old!