ITV News - Printable Version

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RE: ITV News - bilky asko - 02-06-2023

(02-06-2023, 02:10 PM)ViridianFan Wrote:  I’m going to ask what is probably a really stupid question so apologies now.

With this virtual set i knee that it was all green screen apart from the desk (minus reflection) and the wood floor under it, but in this photo it shows the screen to the right of the desk.  Is that  actually there behind the green or has someone superimposed it on to show where it is?

It's projected faintly onto the green screen so presenters have something to look at. A similar technique has been used in Jeremy Vine's green screen setups for elections, I believe.

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RE: ITV News - Stuart - 02-06-2023

(02-06-2023, 02:26 PM)bilky asko Wrote:  It's projected faintly onto the green screen so presenters have something to look at. A similar technique has been used in Jeremy Vine's green screen setups for elections, I believe.

Indeed, it's just a projection for DTLs which would be ignored by any live broadcast and it's for the benefit of the presenter as a focus object. 

The alternative would be a plasma screen showing the same view which you would have to mask.

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RE: ITV News - simon - 02-06-2023

(01-06-2023, 11:09 PM)DTV Wrote:  People on here keep evangelising this kind of 360 LED wall stuff and, while I think it would work as a part of a physical set - i.e., as a backdrop videowall that moves with the camera, I just do not see any real point to the every wall (and floor) stuff. Once all things are considered, it just isn't really that much (if at all) better than VR. Sure it does to some extent 'physicalise' the virtual set for those in it and does get rid of keying issues, but the virtual elements aren't actually inherently any better quality (if using the same renderer) and it is more expensive to install and less energy efficient to run. Plus, while those in studio can now see the 'set', it will always be from an odd perspective and watching it switch perspective with the camera must be distracting - and that's without getting into the calibration issues associated with camera switching.

The 'genuine reflections' point is also particularly interesting. You're right that you can have more reflective elements as part of the physical set, but the way that those physical reflective elements interact with the virtual set will often be less realistic. If you have a black glass desk top, as per ITV, and you want it to reflect a skyline as it would reflect a genuine one out a window, you can't achieve that effect using an LED wall as the physical desk can only reflect what is shown on the screen. In a VR environment, you combine the reflective technique that Stuart mentions above with a virtual skyline cyc and get a fairly real reflection.

I've attempted to demonstrate this difference by recycling my WIP VR Breakfast mock from TVLF...

The 'LED display' is on the left, the VR cyc on the right and shows the sky as a genuine reflection would, were the environment real.

My understanding is that with an LED-based virtual set, it's much easier to convincingly blend subjects into the environment. I do agree that the benefits would probably be pretty marginal, though.

I think having presenters being able to see their surroundings would help for more flexible uses of the space, for example when shooting explainers where you might want to point at things. It's certainly not a make or break feature though, we've obviously seen presenters manage this in front of a green screen before.

In any case, I think in news at least, a 'real' set with a generous set of video walls gives you a good balance. It allows you to change the look of the studio between programmes or when you want to refresh the look, while also keeping the whole set looking more real. The BBC has shown how effective this can be in B, and if you took the towers away from that studio it would be incredibly flexible as a set. If you then add this sort of technology in you can add depth to the sets.

In many ways it's a pity this technology didn't mature a bit more before the BBC installed the new set in B. I think having the ability to give depth to its graphics would have been stunning on the massive curved screen. It'd be really interesting if they could retrofit the tech to the touchscreen for VR-style segments on things like election programming. The benefits of the presenter being able to point at stuff in the screen confidently, and being able to overlay graphics in the real screen while still having the virtual world around the presenter (eg a virtual House of Commons) would look great. Look at 4:00 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsCGdTgOLXM 

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RE: ITV News - Stuart - 02-06-2023

(02-06-2023, 12:16 PM)Studio7 Wrote:  @alfiejmulcahy put up a picture on the blue forum showing exactly how the desk reflection works:

Thank you Studio7, that was the picture I was looking for this morning when I got 'lost' on Google following too many interesting links (as you do). 

The reflection is not a keyed-element, it is a deliberate layer of the VR environment, over and above the physical set. You could paint the top of the desk 'pink with purple polkadots', and the reflection effect would still be maintained by the VR rendering. It's not relying on any green reflection from within the studio.

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RE: ITV News - DTV - 02-06-2023

(02-06-2023, 11:30 PM)Stuart Wrote:  The reflection is not a keyed-element, it is a deliberate layer of the VR environment, over and above the physical set. You could paint the top of the desk 'pink with purple polkadots', and the reflection effect would still be maintained by the VR rendering. It's not relying on any green reflection from within the studio.

If this is the case, how do they achieve the reflection of presenters and desk items on the desk top glass? How does the VR reflection rectangle not cover up paper or keyboards that are placed on top of the black glass? And why is the VR reflection noticeably larger than the actual desk glass?

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RE: ITV News - bilky asko - 02-06-2023

(02-06-2023, 11:30 PM)Stuart Wrote:  Thank you Studio7, that was the picture I was looking for this morning when I got 'lost' on Google following too many interesting links (as you do). 

The reflection is not a keyed-element, it is a deliberate layer of the VR environment, over and above the physical set. You could paint the top of the desk 'pink with purple polkadots', and the reflection effect would still be maintained by the VR rendering. It's not relying on any green reflection from within the studio.

It would indeed still be maintained, but you'd not see it, as there'd be nothing keyed out in that position. That is why there is an overlap, as DTV notes. It means that the effect goes right to the edge of the actual acrylic top.

Occasionally in the past, this hasn't always worked quite right, as can be seen in this example below (at the topmost corner of the desk, as the camera looks at it):

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RE: ITV News - Stuart - 03-06-2023

If it wasn't a complete 'CGI overlay' you'd have the issue demonstrated here where the wires and other equipment would be visible and not keyed out, as the only green they can see is behind the desk. The reflection would be of the studio lights directly above.

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RE: ITV News - bilky asko - 03-06-2023

(03-06-2023, 12:01 AM)Stuart Wrote:  If it wasn't a complete 'CGI overlay' you'd have the issue demonstrated here where the wires and other equipment would be visible and not keyed out, as the only green they can see is behind the desk. The reflection would be of the studio lights directly above.

But you can see the equipment under the desk in this case, because at that angle there's not enough green for it to be keyed out.

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RE: ITV News - DTV - 03-06-2023

For reference, the whole video is here, with the relevant section from 02:58.
https://vimeo.com/208654441 


With the moving video, it's even more apparent - as bilky references - that how much of the desk 'insides' can be seen in the finished product is clearly affected by how green the reflection is on the real desk. The bit (closest to the presenter) that looks clearer in the above image is simply where the desk sees through to the green studio floor, rather than the less 'keyable' green tint of the rostrum. Also worth noting that, in some of the later shots in the video, you can clearly see the desk microphones in the final image.

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RE: ITV News - Stuart - 03-06-2023

(03-06-2023, 12:08 AM)bilky asko Wrote:  But you can see the equipment under the desk in this case, because at that angle there's not enough green for it to be keyed out.

That's the point I've been making. I don't think there is enough 'green' to produce anything to key out. CSO surroundings need to be quite brightly lit, hence why these studios are startlingly bright. That's why they have a CGI overlay of the desk as a different layer of the VR environment.

I don't think they can key out areas which are 'almost green'. You'd have elements of your set (and talent) disappearing all over the place.

This is a fascinating discussion.

(Do we have anyone on here from ITN who can corroborate me or serve up my next portion of humble pie?)

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