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RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - Former Member 2410 - 19-12-2023

(19-12-2023, 08:45 PM)i.h Wrote:  I think the more salient point is that CI modules aren't really designed for that sort of use - they are literally just decryption modules.

I don't think it's fair to say TV manufacturers don't want to support them, nor are they hard to understand if there was a need to use them here. They are widely used in Europe in place of set top boxes, eg. I stayed in a hotel in Switzerland earlier in the year and each TV had a UPC CAM and card and was presumably connected to the local cable network. (ironically I couldn't use it because a previous guest had fiddled with the module and bent the pins in the TV lol). The UK is an outlier in that both Sky and Virgin require their set top box, though ON/ITV digital and Top Up TV did issue CAMs.

But in terms of new UK services, it would make more sense to see a commitment to software upgrades and updates, though I suspect people would balk at not being able to buy a TV for pennies in a supermarket.

Fair points and I think I should have clarified my post with the words "in the U.K." somewhere.  As you rightly point out, they're still in-use elsewhere in Europe and Switzerland is one of the bigger areas.  As noted, the primary use is for decryption, which in the U.K. takes place within the STB.  I wouldn't say the U.K. is an outlier in this respect however, as Canada also has decryption in the STB. Certainly the operator I have - (StarChoice  > Shaw Direct > Rogers) used to used smart-cards in the box (but no CAM), but they stopped doing this a long time ago.

And, as noted, On / ITV Digital did issue CAMs, but I'm not sure they were ever particularly popular or well-used, and certainly not really 'pushed' as an option, I suspect as a lot of the TV hardware then didn't have the option to use them, especially as there were still a fair amount of 4:3 CRTs in-use (I used On / ITV Digital with the telly in a spare bedroom, which was a lovely Sony 14" Trinitron Big Grin).

The U.S. is somewhat different as cable operators were required to issue, for a time, both their own 'operator-issued' CableCARDs, but also CableCARDs which would allow consumers to view programming on devices other than the 'operator-supplied' STB (such as PC's).  This was meant to foster competition in the STB market, but this never really took-off. The need for operators to support CableCARDs ended in 2020.  Operators wanted to move away from physical security cards and, by that point, streaming was becoming a much larger piece of the puzzle.

N.B.: Incidentally, if anyone wants to see a fascinating documentary on the development of U.S. cable television, I recommend the following:

https://youtu.be/0DihJDbitbg?feature=shared 

I think in terms of being hard-to-understand; no you are correct in that they're not so much hard-to-understand as I think people just won't understand the reason behind them.  Most people will never have come across one, even in Europe or the U.S.  Of course, if it was the only way to get Freely (see how I got back on-point there Wink) then people would soon pick-up the idea, but there's also quite a few secondary TV's that might not have the ability to use a CAM.

EDITED: 19/12/2023 - 21:56

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - Daveuk - 19-12-2023

A really useful way of doing this would be to allow users to add multiple accounts to the STB

If I want the Freeview channels, I enter a Freeview URL, username and password and I have access to the Freeview channels
I want Sky Sports, I enter a Sky Sports URL and my Sky Sports username and password and those channels are added to the EPG.

Also add the relevant VOD content.

TNT Sports, Pluto TV, ITV X FAST channels etc. Allow users to select which content they would like on their EPG and in their VOD library.

Content providers would be able to collect the data they want and users would be able to access content in a unified EPG and VOD library.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - orange - 20-12-2023

That’s a little like what amazon is doing with the Fire TV - it has a guide that includes the live channels from ITVX, Pluto and Freevee. Assuming if you downloaded more apps like Rakuten or Plex it might add the channels from them also.

Annoyingly the ITVX channels just launch the app and you still have those awful load times - the channels from the other apps load instantly.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - agemame - 20-12-2023

(19-12-2023, 10:47 PM)Former Member 2410 Wrote:  Fair points and I think I should have clarified my post with the words "in the U.K." somewhere.  As you rightly point out, they're still in-use elsewhere in Europe and Switzerland is one of the bigger areas.  As noted, the primary use is for decryption, which in the U.K. takes place within the STB.  I wouldn't say the U.K. is an outlier in this respect however, as Canada also has decryption in the STB. Certainly the operator I have - (StarChoice  > Shaw Direct > Rogers) used to used smart-cards in the box (but no CAM), but they stopped doing this a long time ago.

And, as noted, On / ITV Digital did issue CAMs, but I'm not sure they were ever particularly popular or well-used, and certainly not really 'pushed' as an option, I suspect as a lot of the TV hardware then didn't have the option to use them, especially as there were still a fair amount of 4:3 CRTs in-use (I used On / ITV Digital with the telly in a spare bedroom, which was a lovely Sony 14" Trinitron Big Grin).

The U.S. is somewhat different as cable operators were required to issue, for a time, both their own 'operator-issued' CableCARDs, but also CableCARDs which would allow consumers to view programming on devices other than the 'operator-supplied' STB (such as PC's).  This was meant to foster competition in the STB market, but this never really took-off. The need for operators to support CableCARDs ended in 2020.  Operators wanted to move away from physical security cards and, by that point, streaming was becoming a much larger piece of the puzzle.

N.B.: Incidentally, if anyone wants to see a fascinating documentary on the development of U.S. cable television, I recommend the following:

https://youtu.be/0DihJDbitbg?feature=shared 

I think in terms of being hard-to-understand; no you are correct in that they're not so much hard-to-understand as I think people just won't understand the reason behind them.  Most people will never have come across one, even in Europe or the U.S.  Of course, if it was the only way to get Freely (see how I got back on-point there Wink) then people would soon pick-up the idea, but there's also quite a few secondary TV's that might not have the ability to use a CAM.

EDITED: 19/12/2023 - 21:56

I believe that when Freeview came out of the ashes of On/ITV Digital there was a significant pushback towards putting the CAM technology into their first run of boxes. Cost was a factor, obviously, but the BBC in particular were keen to keep as much of a barrier towards subscription services sneaking back in as possible. By that same logic, it's hard to see this being implemented as a CAM module, when USB dongles are more likely to be accessible in that specific case.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - Brekkie - 20-12-2023

(20-12-2023, 01:35 PM)agemame Wrote:  I believe that when Freeview came out of the ashes of On/ITV Digital there was a significant pushback towards putting the CAM technology into their first run of boxes. Cost was a factor, obviously, but the BBC in particular were keen to keep as much of a barrier towards subscription services sneaking back in as possible. By that same logic, it's hard to see this being implemented as a CAM module, when USB dongles are more likely to be accessible in that specific case.
It was more a case the BBC didn't want to risk having the technology be pretty much universal so there wasn't a system in place should there be a future push to move the licence fee towards a subscription model.

Feels an odd technology to bring up now though - it's something I associate with the era of Top Up TV.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - cable - 20-12-2023

(20-12-2023, 01:45 PM)Brekkie Wrote:  It was more a case the BBC didn't want to risk having the technology be pretty much universal so there wasn't a system in place should there be a future push to move the licence fee towards a subscription model.

In other words, the BBC stifled the potential growth of the commercial market. Imagine the reduced costs of someone like Top Up TV not having to launch their own boxes with slots and have a potentially larger user base because of it.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - Nige - 21-12-2023

If you read “Inside Story” by Greg Dyke (available on Amazon Books), he explains exactly why he wanted a non CAM box.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - Dan - 21-12-2023

I'd be disappointed to not have this available on my Fire Cube, especially as I plan to ditch Sky shortly.

However, I guess I can understand why they wouldn't want it available on devices like the firestick or android TV. It's relatively easy for someone outside of the UK to just connect a VPN app, set to UK and start watching UK channels for free, without a license. Yes, I know they can probably do this already with iPlayer, ITVX etc.. but given it's everything in one place, it becomes more inciting.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - orange - 21-12-2023

If someone is really wanting to do that they already can and probably are doing that - and like you said you can already do that with their existing apps. I don’t think it poses a real danger at all - we’ve had things like TVPlayer around before now. I assume if they were to port it on different devices you’d have to put your postcode in like with the other apps - and I doubt there’s an abundance of overseas pirates waiting to be able to consume all the free to air UK channels they want to the point it becomes an issue for the license fee payer.

RE: BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 to launch joint streaming service - London Lite - 22-12-2023

Considering how hard it is to get Sky Stream to work outside the UK and Ireland unless you're a specialist provider who can ship it over complete with a residential VPN for a huge fee. I doubt they'll be interested in doing the same for a FTV streaming provider.