TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Printable Version

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Steve in Pudsey - 21-08-2023

(21-08-2023, 12:03 PM)Bluecortina Wrote:  Am I right in thinking this particular problem was quickly overcome by an enterprising links engineer pointing a conventional microwave dish towards BBC tv centre where the signal was picked up and relayed to BT tower then onwards to Chiswick?

Not sure about that, but I think in the aftermath of this incident a terrestrial path via Crystal Palace and the BBC was put in place as a reserve.

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Orry Verducci - 21-08-2023

(21-08-2023, 07:55 AM)thegeek Wrote:  The 'no signal detected' screen is indeed a satellite decoder (probably the venerable Ericsson/MediaKind RX8200). The flashes of green are probably brief bits of it outputting invalid SDI video before it noticed and put out the error message instead.
The SIS 'Meida City' bars are actually generated by an encoder (providing a link from Salford to ITV's contribution network, possibly via BT Tower), and pop up on a loss of input. SIS, now NEP Connect, have a downlink station there.
So I think what happened was:
- RF stage loses signal
- Video decoder loses lock, then holds on to the last frame, then outputs black, then a few seconds of no valid video
- IVNP encoder pops up its bars
- Sat decoder starts outputting valid SDI black, which IVNP encoder starts sending again
- Sat decoder outputs signal loss message
- playout director cuts to the reserve, possibly not noticing that it's also on a glitchy freeze frame
- Playout director reaches for their breakdown slide and standby material.

The Signal Loss screen is indeed from a MediaKind RX8200.

I believe the sequence of events are slightly different to what you describe.

It appears to me that ITV Pres were taking their main path from NEP's downlink facility in MediaCity (they're regularly used by ITV for sat downlinks), with the backup path from another downlink facility. The backup may even be one of Red Bee's on site receivers (they have a few).

What we see is NEP losing the signal and whatever is downstream failing over to bars when the decoder stops outputting valid video. The switch to the RX8200's 'No Signal' message would be Pres manually switching to their guard (the backup path), which is obviously also down. The switch between the message and the glitchy frozen frame is characteristic of a RX8200 receiving corrupted data. I look after a few of them and they all do this in similar situations. At that point Pres clearly admit defeat and switch to the fault slate.

To avoid this situation normally ITV insist on main paths being by fibre, with sat links only being permitted on backup paths. However I vaguely recall that in this situation there was something about the venue that made connectivity difficult, so they had to resort to dual satellite links (two satellites, two downlink facilities). The severe weather unfortunately blocked the uplink from both sat trucks.

For live shows delivered via dual satellite ITV now require a lower bitrate internet stream (e.g. SRT) to be provided in to Red Bee as tertiary to avoid similar situations. BT Tower have the capability now to make SRT streams available on their router, which can  be booked straight in to ITV's contribution network (Meganet).

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Bluecortina - 21-08-2023

(21-08-2023, 01:41 PM)Stooky Bill Wrote:  That wouldn't be this occasion as it was 5 years after TV Centre closed. I think they just had to wait till the weather passed 

There was an incident when they were at Fountain Studios in Wembley where the BBC helped out. IIRC that was a big failure at BT Tower so if that's what happened then  presumably the BBC either uplinked it to satellite or used some other connectivity to ITV or ITN.

There was one X Factor/BGT failure, might be the same as the above, where there was a satellite path for Irish TV and that was used - with the BBC downlinking it and passing it on to ITV

Thank you.

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Stooky Bill - 21-08-2023

(21-08-2023, 05:46 PM)Orry Verducci Wrote:  To avoid this situation normally ITV insist on main paths being by fibre, with sat links only being permitted on backup paths. However I vaguely recall that in this situation there was something about the venue that made connectivity difficult, so they had to resort to dual satellite links (two satellites, two downlink facilities). The severe weather unfortunately blocked the uplink from both sat trucks.

The venue was the Hammersmith Apollo which AFAIK doesn't have any permanent circuits from it. I don't think they'd have been willing to use whatever Internet was available at the venue. 

Quote:The Signal Loss screen is indeed from a MediaKind RX8200.

Presumabky different places have different policies as to what they do in that situation. It's nicer/neater to have it stay on the last image as the BBC do, but it's also less easy to spot. There's a clip of a snooker breakdown somewhere where it seems to be a long while before they realise. Snooker normally is fairly quiet and periods of almost still image

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Orry Verducci - 22-08-2023

(21-08-2023, 10:39 PM)Stooky Bill Wrote:  The venue was the Hammersmith Apollo which AFAIK doesn't have any permanent circuits from it. I don't think they'd have been willing to use whatever Internet was available at the venue.

At the time ITV wouldn't have asked for that, or had the capability to take it. But now for a primetime show which can only provide dual satellite they do normally ask for it, even if it ends up coming from a bonded 4G/5G link. It's only there as a third option of last resort for exactly this situation. They wouldn't use it as a main or backup (for ITV1 at least).

(21-08-2023, 10:39 PM)Stooky Bill Wrote:  Presumabky different places have different policies as to what they do in that situation. It's nicer/neater to have it stay on the last image as the BBC do, but it's also less easy to spot. There's a clip of a snooker breakdown somewhere where it seems to be a long while before they realise. Snooker normally is fairly quiet and periods of almost still image

Generally when used for playout they are configured to hold on the last frame, but I've seen instances where they're misconfigured. With booked decoders being used for various different purposes sometimes the settings get changed and missed when it comes to the next booking.

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - simpfeld - 23-08-2023

(21-08-2023, 10:39 PM)Stooky Bill Wrote:  The venue was the Hammersmith Apollo which AFAIK doesn't have any permanent circuits from it. I don't think they'd have been willing to use whatever Internet was available at the venue. 

Just to note, of course it does now have fibre connectivity, the NEP Connect AnyLive fibre network covers the now Eventim Apollo/Hammersmith Apollo.

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - Technologist - 23-08-2023

But surprisingly NEP connect does not have a link into Red Bee so it would need to via BT M&B or someone!
https://assets.website-files.com/5c40ac47bced8c2eb41a6904/625ec2c1c07cd881a2e19625_NEP%20Map%20140422.pdf 

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - robertclark125 - 26-08-2023

One on Eurosport right now, European masters semi final between Judd Trump and John Higgins. Pictures went during the third frame, with Higgins at the table, and Eurosport, initially went to recorded footage of the crowd in the arena waiting for the start of play, but the switched to some highlights, before going back to the pre match footage. As I type pictures are back, but now, commentary is echoing. The fact the commentators didn't see pictures, and were giving the score out, I guess via the WST website, suggests to me they may be in Feltham, off tubing, and not on site.

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RE: TV Mistakes/Breakdowns - thegeek - 26-08-2023

Eurosport haven't been in Feltham for a while now - commentators were likely off-tube in Chiswick. Could well have been weather-related if it was on satellite.

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Bennyboy84 - Bennyboy84 - 26-08-2023

(26-08-2023, 05:33 PM)thegeek Wrote:  Eurosport haven't been in Feltham for a while now - commentators were likely off-tube in Chiswick. Could well have been weather-related if it was on satellite.

Likely weather related, had a minor thunderstorm here in Dorset a couple of hours ago and when I went on lightningmaps there was a big one over London.

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